Author: Page

I had a recent conversation and subsequent email exchange with a friend about having a “leaders” gathering for a couple days sometime in the coming months. The friend is someone I respect, someone who is like us and gathers regularly in a natural, simple way in homes. I’ve mocked up the email exchange a bit to remove unnecessary and personal detail, but kept it true to what transpired between us. I welcome your interaction on this:

Friend: Dear Page, I believe it’s God’s leading to gather “leaders” of the simple church concept in the area together to meet for a couple days. These would be people who demonstrate an “apostolic” gifting, with influence on more than one group in this geographical area. It would be to get better acquainted and come to a place where we can really love and trust one another. The gathering would be a time to get our hearts more together – fellowship, sharing, prayer, worship, etc.

I recognize that you and some others have emphasized wanting to expand the invite to a broader representation of those currently meeting in groups in the area, but after more thought and prayer, I still feel that the Lord has clearly said “leaders.” So my thought is that we start with a leaders meeting for a couple days, and then this would be followed by a couple days with the broader group of those actually meeting in groups now.

Please give it some thought and prayer and let me know your thoughts.

Page: Dear friend, I hope you wont take offense, but as you’ll see, I am not in favor of going forward with the ideas as proposed. This whole subject of “leaders” has been central to the the very intentional detoxing out of old wineskins, if you will, that we’ve been actively doing for many years now.

For your thoughts:

• How is your use of the title “leaders” any different from what the Lord said not to do in Matt 23:8+? He knew how our flesh loves to be stroked, and I would sugget that it’s impossible for people in such a gathering to NOT feel that flesh stroking sensation which comes from being included.
• Do you see any examples in scripture of the thinking and activity that you are suggesting?
• What would be the anticipated outcome of such a meeting of so-called “leaders”? Personally, as I consider any conceivable, desired, outcome of a broader group of the saints (mutual encouragement, building trust/rapport/relationship among the saints – the main tracks that God’s kingdom here on earth should be running on, clarity in hearing the Lord together, recognizing and fanning into flames that which the Lord is doing among us, the various ministries of the Holy Spirit to and through us, worshipping and ministering to the Lord because he is so worthy, gaining vision for what he is doing in the bigger picture than where we each live, on and on), all of them are better served, and consistent with the new wineskins God is bringing us into, if we gather the whole body.
• You have emphasized that the Lord has given you this guidance, and it would appear that this is at least part of the justification for why you’d like us to be agreeable. If you think this through, in it’s simplest form, that boils down to “I’ve heard from the Lord, so follow me in this” – which is from the old wineskin that the Lord is moving us out of, and which I know you don’t want to perpetuate. So I observe a mixed message.
• I believe that how the Lord leads our lives is part-and-parcel with his gifting in us and purposes for us. We’re not uninvolved, robotic obeyers, but are coming into the fulfillment of his purposes for us as we obey his promptings – it’s all one combined purpose. (I’m sure you’d agree with this) But we always see in part, and it’s designed that we be in the context of the body to know the whole story. Thus, we in our gathering over the years, are learning to come into God’s purposes for us – be they apostolic, prophetic, evangelistic, pastoral, teaching, etc. – in the context of the loving, collaborative environment of the body of Christ. I believe that God is redefining how the whole concept of leadership is worked out among the church. Who’s leading this? He is. It’s hard not to fill pages with all the ways to say it, but what you’ve suggested – cherry picking a few people from the area to give them special place, pulling them out of the context of the body that knows them best, and suggesting that the kingdom of God is advanced among us this way – is inconsistent with what he’s been showing us.
• I would suggest a fluid understanding of how the Lord raises up his gifts among a group of saints to accomplish his purposes. Any available servant can exemplify any of the gifts, and if one won’t, then he’ll move on to another. And it’s usually several who are moving in an area of gifting, some perhaps more than others, at any given time. Also, the manifestation of the gifting will look different in each, and man may not always recognize it as such till eyes are opened. While some may always demonstrate certain strengths, I’ve observed that the gift mix demonstrated in people can change over time – either as greater healing and wholeness happens to us, or perhaps the Lord’s purposes in us individually and corporately takes new turns. For example, some people who never saw themselves as pioneers are becoming such out of necessity. As we all grow up together in the context of healthy body-life, our eyes are getting opened and people are constantly discovering new ways God wants to heal them, minister to them, mature them and use them for his purposes. New vision and passion is awakened, old promises and desires start to be fulfilled, impartations from the Lord happen among us – all this is the beautiful way the Holy Spirit grows us up together, giving us abundant lives, and accomplishing the work of his kingdom on earth. But this whole picture unravels when man attempts to take the helm by doing the humanly-natural things, such as calling out certain people over others, giving them special place and purpose (from man, not from God), and all those things that are critical for accomplishing earthly purposes (eg, worldly businesses and governments), but confuse matters greatly when mixed with the work of God’s kingdom. It’s my opinion that there is massive blindness among the church in this area, and much of it rooted in “the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the boastful pride of life.” But something like scales is falling from the collective eyes of the church, and we’re starting to see.
• Another word about gifts – there’s no indication that we have a complete list in the scriptures. There’s no two places where the same ones are listed, no attempt to bound that list, and Jesus clearly indicated that when he left earth and the Holy Spirit came he would take the church on into more of him. While some generalities can be made about what certain gifts look like, each person is a unique work of God, a mixture of various gifts, and constantly being matured into more of their calling. Thus, each person becomes a new definition of a “gift of God.” And it’s my sense that we’re in a time when it’s very helpful to the body if we actively seek removal of boundaries not ordained by God, which is that spirit of freedom that Jesus took everywhere he went, and seek him for the stirring up of all the gifts for the sake of his purposes. In the same way, let’s let go of the old and familiar where God has not clearly instructed us. I’m finding a fresh look at the life and times of the new testament church is quite revealing.

To sum it up, what you’ve proposed does not align well with the path that we, along with several other families in the area, have been on in recent years. In a previous “leaders” meeting that I participated in – while it was a delight to meet the folks – I couldn’t help feeling like we would come to know people better, and have a more meaningful time among us, if people were in the context of the body of Christ around them who know them.

In our gatherings here, we do not find ourselves using the term “leaders” or setting any gifted persons apart from others. We are finding we all grow into our callings as we do it together, in a setting of loving, supportive relationships. And as we consider next steps, the clearest seems to be reaching out more broadly to those around us and inviting all to come together for mutual encouragements, ministry of the Spirit, hearing the Lord together, prayer, worship, etc. – much like you have proposed, but all inclusive of the body.

For example, what about each area simply expanding to do local gatherings of the churches among those gathering near them? Reach out to all we can find in each of our respective areas. These could be done on a regular basis, and word will start to get out, and it could become a very meaningful venue. Include people who are seeking so that they may get connected with existing groups near them, have a place to talk about it all and ask questions, and get inspired to start their own groups. This seems like the kind of thing that would lead to expanding the kingdom right around us. Afterwards we could send around the good report of all that God did and revealed in the experience. As we do this in gradually larger groupings, the Lord will bring wisdom and maturity to know how best to do the larger areas.

Friend: Dear Page, thanks for your thoughts. Regarding the whole subject of “leaders” I don’t have any problem with not using that word, but I have never seen a group of people that in time did not have “leaders” – those with that gifting arise to the surface. The early church didn’t seem to have a problem with terms like “elders” and “apostles” – Acts 15:2, 4, 6, 22, 23, etc. Perhaps we are over-reacting to our time in the institutional church.

I still believe strongly that those of apostolic influence in the area need to come together for some time to get better acquainted and become more accountable to one another. That is not to say what you or others might choose to be part of. In my heart I consider you free to follow the Lord – and I know you have the same thought toward us. And I am also open to some type of gathering of “representatives” of groups as we discussed. Or maybe by regions as you have mentioned – that actually sounds quite good to me.

Page: Dear Friend, I agree that we want all to be free to follow what they believe the Lord has called them to do. Only then is our hearing and obeying perfected. The balance is that we must always be free to share our thoughts among us collectively, with no silencing of true-heart voices. He gave the Spirit of wisdom and revelation to the collective “you” of the body – Eph 1:17. I see no problem here among us, which is great.

I think it would be revealing to look further into how and when elders in the NT played a role. I believe it’s nothing like what today’s religious systems do, and therefore what most of us likely have burned into our unspoken assumptions. Gene Edwards and Frank Viola have probably written on the subject, maybe you’ve read them. Either way, we need to let the Lord birth again the essence of what he wants to do in every age and location, and trust him to show us not just the “what to do” but “how to do it.” I’m sure you’d agree.

You’ve raised a few value points for a proposed “leaders” meeting such as getting acquainted, accountability, and growing to love and trust each other. In my response to this, I’m likely to read more into it than you meant, but it touches on something I think God’s finger is really on right now, and is very central to our story of detoxing from the traditional church ways.

It’s my view that real accountability is born out of trusting, honest relationships that only happen from investing significant time together where eventually all aspects of each other’s lives come to bear – family, work, spiritual matters, areas of personal growth, the good/bad/ugly, etc. Hopefully, everyone gets the opportunity in this life to have a group of people where this can happen. I would suggest that a once-in-awhile gathering of some people, picked because of a particular bent or gifting, will not breed this in any significance, and is not something I would even try to accomplish. Until we have more relationship maturity among us, my experience is that these times will often breed more “posing” than realness, even among the best of us. This is another one of those areas where I believe there’s massive blindness in the church. All too often we have spent ourselves – pouring enormous amounts of time, energy, resources – into trying to quickly “manufacture” a resemblance of a desired end, such as the experience of true community. But that which isn’t real is eventually brought into the light, and it crumbles to bits. Instead, we should have been paying the price to see the genuine article come to fruition by the Lord’s ways, in the Lord’s timing. The church has done herself and those around her a great disservice. What the world where we live desperately needs is a people who will take time to let real relationships happen under the shepherding leadership of Jesus Christ. We’re seeing it now, but it’s taking time, and it’s taking all the different gifts in all the different people working it out together. But God is not in a hurry.

What I believe God is after is seeing that true, relational maturity rise up among his followers. This is changing our lives, and it will change all aspects of how the church operates when we gather. Until this has good momentum on the smaller scale, group by group, I’m probably not going to have much energy for the larger gatherings where we come away feeling like we lost ground in this area instead of gained it. In our gathering here, it used to feel like we were a tiny blade of grass in this department, poking it’s head out of the ground, quite vulnerable to being crushed if someone was too reckless. Now it feels like we’re a stronger blade and there’s a couple others nearby (there’s probably a lot more than we know). In time, there will be tons of strong blades and you can play football on them. But I don’t care how long it takes, and I’m quite certain I’ll never see the fullness in my lifetime that I envision. But that’s not the point, is it? The point is that Jesus gets the bride he’s after, and that we each do our part. John 17:4 is a life verse for me. I’d rather let things take the right amount of time and let God grow the grass field rather than waste any more years in the “quick-fix” mentality and have nothing but a dirt lot to show for it at the end.

Friend: Dear Page, Thanks for your thoughts – you have certainly given these matters a lot of thought! I agree that there is a tendency to “hurry” relationships and do programs to produce results in the traditional church. And I agree that there are some things that God is after that take time – much time. And I agree that there are some things that only take place when one is “in community.” I have been in several such environments over the years.

But I do not see that this precludes the good that can come out of some of us getting together for a couple of days, which I believe God has place on my heart. We are really talking about two separate items.

One is a gathering of those (apostolic) who have influence with more than one group in the area – to get better acquainted, come to a place where we can more fully love and trust one another, and be more accountable to one another. (I believe that apostles need to be accountable to other apostles). This is the gathering that I believe God has placed on my heart.

The second is a gathering of house church groups or representatives of groups. I like the suggestion that this might best be done by each area. This is not what God has put on my heart but something you and others may want to follow up on.

Page: Dear Friend, I appreciate your tenacity :-). And while yes, I’ve been doing a lot of thinking on these things, I do appreciate the opportunity to articulate the thoughts, which is forcing me to package them up in some way that makes sense to someone else – so thanks for that!

I’m going to differ with you regarding the downside of certain types of gatherings (and activity in general) that are too much of the old wineskin. As mentioned earlier, I do believe that we can actually lose ground this way instead of gain it.

To your last point, my response is to reiterate that people of apostolic gifting, like any other gifting, are best held accountable in the context of the whole body of Christ around them, who know them, and have developed the kinds of relationships where real accountability happens. And I’m unconvinced there’s good from pulling out a “VIP” crowd from the rest of the body. These “leaders meetings” are certainly an old phenomenon, but they just aren’t what we see God doing among us here, and I see mostly trouble in them until God brings more wisdom and revelation to how he’s perfecting his way of leadership among us.

I agree that there’s some kind of larger-area gathering that will happen among the body that will bring great encouragement, and I have longed for this too. But I’m not willing to forsake what we’ve gained at the smaller level, that I believe is critical for the broader body to get to where God is taking us. So I am compelled to stay the course.

Let’s keep the love and relationships going!

I’ve been thinking about relationships among the church. If you’ve been in a typical, institutional-type church (like most of us) for any length of time, you’ve probably had some relationships implode, self-destruct, blow up – pick your metaphor. My wife and I certainly have. And one of the things we came to see is that in these environments it’s easy to cast aside good wisdom on growing meaningful relationships in the spirit of doing a task together, seemingly for the Kingdom of God. The ironic thing I see now is that good relationships are the foundation to the Kingdom of God thriving on earth. This is yet another one of those places that the “church business” model has gotten us into trouble.

Here’s how it often goes: We get involved in a church and, going along with the flow, commit ourselves to various large & small group gatherings with perfect strangers, or maybe we know a couple people. Before long we’re signing up to help with various tasks to help the business grow. With the best intentions we are usually quick to put ourselves in very vulnerable situations relationally. There’s the sense that, “hey, we’re all part of the Family of God, right?” And true, openness, honesty, humility – these are core values in the Kingdom of God. We all naturally hunger for relationships that have these qualities. But this whole business is often going way too fast for the proper development of the relationship “container” where these things naturally happen. And sooner or later, either you don’t measure up to someone’s expectations, or someone else doesn’t seem to be the person you thought they were, and a relational crisis happens.

What usually follows is some mixture of fear, anger, blaming, desires for revenge, and many other intense emotions, and it becomes really difficult to sort out what really happened, why it happened, how to fix it, or if it even can be fixed. Depending on how far the vulnerability went, how long the charade had gone on, how relationally vested people were to those involved or the activities you mutually participated in, my observation is that most of the time, the relationships are not fixed.

I’ve been through situations like this a few times. When I finally got off the “church business” merry-go-round long enough to think and pray reflectively about all this, I realized that I was my primary problem. I chose to relate to people at levels far beyond where true trust and rapport had brought us. It was inappropriate for me to place such levels of trust in people so soon. Sure, 20+ years of active participation in growing churches and para-church movements had encouraged bad relational habits. But blaming others only prolongs the necessary steps of growth – I had to learn new habits.

The good news I found is that it really wasn’t that difficult to come into better relating habits as I have allowed God to take me through “detox” out of a church subculture, and the ways of church businesses, and into a simple, more natural, Spirit-led approach to following Jesus. For many years I had to deal with not having very many relationships at all among other followers of Christ because we didn’t have regular times to gather with them – this was when we were first getting started in simple gatherings with other followers. Truly, there were years of despair from the lack of meaningful relationships. But this, too, was formative in helping me detox from bad habits. Even as we started gathering more regularly with others, it took years to see people more than once or twice a month. Tough going relationally, but now I look back and realize God was shepherding me into new, healthier ways of forming long-lasting, meaningful relationships. It’s not so much that I’ve learned how to deal with “blow ups” better, but it’s now very rare that I even find myself in a situation where that can happen. We’re generally not getting ourselves committed beyond the true trust levels. I’ve still had times of unfortunate misunderstandings, and not every situation has come to the desired end. But I’ve come a long way on this path of healthier relating. I’ve been blessed to have special people around me who are either better at this than I, or have had their own years of relationship churn among the church, and God is shepherding them to new places as well, so the commitment levels to “go slow” are mutual.

I could summarize the lessons as:

• God is not in a hurry, and it’s best if we aren’t either. Go slow with relationships. Let the pace be natural, easy, peaceful. Pay attention to warning signs, where something feels inappropriate or rushed. I think one of the biggest factors contributing to relational crisis is going too fast in the initial trust-forming years. Don’t allow yourself to be coerced to go faster than what is right for you. When in doubt, wait.
• Let the relational risks you take be small at first, and appropriate to allow both you and the other to gain levels of confidence in each other. Don’t inappropriately invest yourself in a relationship beyond where the trust levels really are.
• Allow yourself to have a certain amount of thick skin. We all do and say things we regret later. And sometimes communication is presented and received such that the end result is nothing that either party intended. If the relationship is worth it to us, I think we’ll all have times where we’ll have to simply overlook the offense and move on, choosing to love the other person and forget the offense.
• Don’t pretend. Don’t pretend to be at a different level of trust, appreciation, rapport, etc. with someone than where you really are. Don’t pretend you feel fine about participating in a level of activity with people that you really don’t feel right about. Be completely honest with yourself. God leads us through our guts most of the time. Pay attention to your guts.
• When the void for relationships is strong in your life, and you’re doing all the things you know are right, I find the best thing to do with the loneliness is to let it drive you deeper into your relationship with God, who is always present. At the right time he will bring us meaningful relationships if we are steadfast and wise in our growth. By then our vision and understanding of right & wrong in this area will be all the more precise.

I’ve come to believe that doing well in this area of relationships is foundational to our quest to “be the church.”

Page

I’d like to say a little more on my thoughts on being a missionary today. It’s really tied up with how my wife and I see the bigger picture of spreading the kingdom of heaven throughout the earth. We don’t have every angle covered here – far from it. But it’s something we’ve recently been thinking over again.

If we felt God leading us to be in Vietnam, China, or any other country, I would assume that I would take up work there and we’d become like normal citizens and contributors back to the community where we lived, then let the Lord reveal himself through us living our lives right along side others in our domain. Our first inclination would be to do exactly what we’re doing right now, only in another country. We’re being the church, and continue growing into being the church, in every way he leads us. God has us here in the pacific northwest of USA, but we don’t have a different understanding of what it means to be the church for different places of the planet. I’ve written elsewhere on this blog some related thoughts on this topic.

A fundamental belief of mine is that people everywhere need to see what the loving Father in heaven is like, and they see it by interactions with us of many kinds, a primary one being watching is go through the same life they go through, yet consistently, day after month after year, there’s something different in our lives. It’s the kindness of God poured out on us, and since we’re living under the same life burdens as others, they see a gospel that they can embrace. It’s essentially the message of Jesus’ life, who humbled himself and became like us, was tempted in the same ways yet without sin, and seeing this we are further enabled to embrace his Father as our own.

As Paul wrote to the Ephesians, “But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions–it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.” In my own words, God wants to dump his kindness on us, in front of others, to show everyone what kind of Father he really is, so they’ll want him too, and he’ll get the chance to have relationship with them.

Now, we realize many followers of Jesus have chosen to try living in other countries on a long-term basis with a different approach than finding gainful employment in a community there. This usually amounts to some form of raising financial support from the generosity of others who are employed, and thus is similar to the concept of “full-time Christian work.” We have dear friends that we love and respect who do this. We don’t have to all agree on this stuff to stay side by side in the Kingdom. But the way they are going about trying to live in the foreign country is not the first approach we would naturally take ourselves, and so it is not aligned with the natural flows of our faith and passion for being the church in our world today. It’s in these situations that we often find the best we can do to support them is simply pray that God make his way clear to them and bless their faith and obedience to him.

As I’ve been thinking over all the areas of the church where I’ve sensed God trying to bring correction in me, I believe they all have their root in the same thing – living by the sinful nature. Take a look at the blog category names that I’m using to characterize church activity that I’ve done in the past, yet I now see in a negative light: full-time christian work, money, christian subculture, church businesses. I’m still working through thoughts on this, and I plan to use this blog as a way to log my way through topics and scripture as I continue to seek the Lord on it and dialogue about it with my wife and friends. But at this point I can say that it’s looking like the distasteful aspects of church activity are coming from my sinful nature. That’s the bad news. The good news is that the God of this universe gave us a Savior, Jesus, to help us out of that, and he gives us his Spirit of wisdom and revelation that Paul talks about in his letter to the Ephesians, so that we can “get it” when it comes to living by the Spirit. Perhaps knowing what a good steak tastes like is first being really clear about what a bad one tastes like. I’ve had both, and I’m learning to discern the difference quicker. I’ve tasted of living by his Spirit, and I want all of it that God has for my family and I, and as many as will walk with us, as we go forward. As I see it, I lost over 2 decades trying to follow Jesus mostly – though not entirely – out of the sinful nature. I’ve had periods of pause when God did a significant retooling of my heart, and the last 10 years have been the most significant ever. I’m sure there will always be the unlearning and re-learning as long as we’re on earth. But I’m committed to spending as much of the life before me – personal thought & prayer, marriage, family, work, other relationships, and doing the works of the kingdom of heaven – all out of living by the Spirit of God.

I’ve been pondering over this thing of living by the Spirit of God, and getting practical real-life understanding and words around what that really means. I’m planning to explore various aspects of this as I spend time thinking, pondering, musing over it with God’s Spirit, the bible, my wife, and friends. I’m seeing more and more that there are really two options for us: live by the Spirit of God, or live by our sinful nature. The interesting part for me is that I’m realizing that MUCH of what has been considered normal living for followers of Jesus is actually living by the sinful nature, and I’ve been duped into not recognizing it as such. So for the sake of getting some clarity on the practical part of “what does this really look like” as God brings wisdom on it, I will likely draw some comparisons of the two in the midst of common scenarios for us believers today.

The focus for this research project came to me when I recently read this in Paul’s letter to the Roman believers:

“I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.”

and,

“Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.”

I’ve concluded that I am living largely out of the sinful nature at this time in my life. Being a parent of small children (3 and 5), is helping me see this! But the good news is that there’s so much to look forward to as God pulls me more and more into living by his Spirit.